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	<title>Comments on: The Real World: Astronomers&#039; Edition</title>
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		<title>By: Stuart</title>
		<link>http://sarahaskew.net/2009/04/30/the-real-world-astronomers-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-344</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 May 2009 18:59:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>After reading Andy&#039;s comment, I&#039;m even more doomed ;-) That is the trouble of working in very large collaborations where every paper has many authors. Lots of work does not equal a good citation index or career prospects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After reading Andy&#8217;s comment, I&#8217;m even more doomed <img src='http://sarahaskew.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />  That is the trouble of working in very large collaborations where every paper has many authors. Lots of work does not equal a good citation index or career prospects.</p>
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		<title>By: Dark Matter Damping &#171; The e-Astronomer</title>
		<link>http://sarahaskew.net/2009/04/30/the-real-world-astronomers-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-349</link>
		<dc:creator>Dark Matter Damping &#171; The e-Astronomer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 06:01:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Matter&#160;Damping  There is an interesting discussion over at Sarah&#8217;s blog, about astronomers being driven by ambition and greed just like everybody else. I remember this [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Matter&nbsp;Damping  There is an interesting discussion over at Sarah&#8217;s blog, about astronomers being driven by ambition and greed just like everybody else. I remember this [...]</p>
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		<title>By: andyxl</title>
		<link>http://sarahaskew.net/2009/04/30/the-real-world-astronomers-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-356</link>
		<dc:creator>andyxl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 May 2009 04:37:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Rob, Sarah - yes, h-index increases with age; many CVs I have seen over the last couple of years therefore use the y=h/T, where T is the number of career-years since PhD. I list h and y on my &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.roe.ac.uk/~al/output-bibliography.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;own web page&lt;/a&gt;

Also, many people look for normalised citations : you divide citations of paper by the number of authors. (ADS will give you this.)  Thats still not right, but better. A selection panel will often start by counting papers, and then citations, but then to really sort out the sheep from the goats, they look to see if someone has a few single author papers or papers with only two or three authors.

I actually think the citation index is healthier than the way it was at the beginning of my career, when sheer number of papers was what counted most. At least now there is some pressure to produce work that somebody actually &lt;em&gt;reads&lt;/em&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob, Sarah &#8211; yes, h-index increases with age; many CVs I have seen over the last couple of years therefore use the y=h/T, where T is the number of career-years since PhD. I list h and y on my <a href="http://www.roe.ac.uk/~al/output-bibliography.htm" rel="nofollow">own web page</a></p>
<p>Also, many people look for normalised citations : you divide citations of paper by the number of authors. (ADS will give you this.)  Thats still not right, but better. A selection panel will often start by counting papers, and then citations, but then to really sort out the sheep from the goats, they look to see if someone has a few single author papers or papers with only two or three authors.</p>
<p>I actually think the citation index is healthier than the way it was at the beginning of my career, when sheer number of papers was what counted most. At least now there is some pressure to produce work that somebody actually <em>reads</em>.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://sarahaskew.net/2009/04/30/the-real-world-astronomers-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-353</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 May 2009 11:33:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sarahaskew.wordpress.com/?p=824#comment-353</guid>
		<description>Stuart - &quot;doomed&quot; may be a strong statement. I always felt proud to be conscientious in my work with things like that but was recently told by someone senior with my best interest at heart that maybe I was a little &quot;too nice&quot;. Huh.

Amanda - I have no idea why journals don&#039;t do double-blind refereeing. There&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.nature.com/peer-to-peer/2008/02/working_doubleblind.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this&lt;/a&gt; editorial on the Nature page with lots of interesting reader comments. On the one hand there seems to be evidence of bias in single-blind peer review, on the other lots of people who think it wouldn&#039;t make a difference anyway.... Had a quick look at ApJ and they have no mention of it in their editorial and ethis policies. I might try to follow up on that.

Rob - firstly, *blush*. Second, no I would hope no one does that! About the age correction, I have a friend who did calculate some kind of age-normalised citation index for all the faculty of our home institute and basically/weirdly found that they were all pretty much identical; and the one positive outlier was by no means the most influential scientist of the department. Should ask him what it was he calculated...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stuart &#8211; &#8220;doomed&#8221; may be a strong statement. I always felt proud to be conscientious in my work with things like that but was recently told by someone senior with my best interest at heart that maybe I was a little &#8220;too nice&#8221;. Huh.</p>
<p>Amanda &#8211; I have no idea why journals don&#8217;t do double-blind refereeing. There&#8217;s <a href="http://blogs.nature.com/peer-to-peer/2008/02/working_doubleblind.html" rel="nofollow">this</a> editorial on the Nature page with lots of interesting reader comments. On the one hand there seems to be evidence of bias in single-blind peer review, on the other lots of people who think it wouldn&#8217;t make a difference anyway&#8230;. Had a quick look at ApJ and they have no mention of it in their editorial and ethis policies. I might try to follow up on that.</p>
<p>Rob &#8211; firstly, *blush*. Second, no I would hope no one does that! About the age correction, I have a friend who did calculate some kind of age-normalised citation index for all the faculty of our home institute and basically/weirdly found that they were all pretty much identical; and the one positive outlier was by no means the most influential scientist of the department. Should ask him what it was he calculated&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: He worked my ex with the van &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Quick scan of the net - research electrician</title>
		<link>http://sarahaskew.net/2009/04/30/the-real-world-astronomers-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-352</link>
		<dc:creator>He worked my ex with the van &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Quick scan of the net - research electrician</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 17:50:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sarahaskew.wordpress.com/?p=824#comment-352</guid>
		<description>[...] http://sarahaskew.wordpress.com/2009/04/30/the-real-world-astronomers-edition/But on the whole, we&#8217;re no nicer than your average electrician or supermarket cashier. We can be petty, selfish, we bear grudges, we have pet loves and pet hates. A strong competitive streak is almost implicit. &#8230; Too many talented scientists don&#8217;t make the cut in research because they didn&#8217;t assert themselves early on. We teach students to scrutinise every photon, why not teach them to question their peers? Young astronomers should be told about the lack of jobs and &#8230; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] <a href="http://sarahaskew.wordpress.com/2009/04/30/the-real-world-astronomers-edition/But" rel="nofollow">http://sarahaskew.wordpress.com/2009/04/30/the-real-world-astronomers-edition/But</a> on the whole, we&#8217;re no nicer than your average electrician or supermarket cashier. We can be petty, selfish, we bear grudges, we have pet loves and pet hates. A strong competitive streak is almost implicit. &#8230; Too many talented scientists don&#8217;t make the cut in research because they didn&#8217;t assert themselves early on. We teach students to scrutinise every photon, why not teach them to question their peers? Young astronomers should be told about the lack of jobs and &#8230; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: astropixie</title>
		<link>http://sarahaskew.net/2009/04/30/the-real-world-astronomers-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-351</link>
		<dc:creator>astropixie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 13:37:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sarahaskew.wordpress.com/?p=824#comment-351</guid>
		<description>i&#039;ve always wondered why the referee process isnt double-blind.   i mean, surely some people could deduce who at least one author is, just like i can usually narrow down the range of potential referees of my papers... but i think its a good first step.

why are journals not using the double-blind method now?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i&#8217;ve always wondered why the referee process isnt double-blind.   i mean, surely some people could deduce who at least one author is, just like i can usually narrow down the range of potential referees of my papers&#8230; but i think its a good first step.</p>
<p>why are journals not using the double-blind method now?</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart</title>
		<link>http://sarahaskew.net/2009/04/30/the-real-world-astronomers-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-350</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 10:29:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sarahaskew.wordpress.com/?p=824#comment-350</guid>
		<description>It appears that I&#039;m doomed.

I took my name off several papers produced in a collaboration because I didn&#039;t feel that I had contributed to those papers specifically. This is bad for me but I think it is the right thing to do. As you say, there is an incentive to add authors to your paper so that the favour will be returned. Perhaps this should be discouraged by reducing the weight of a paper by the number of authors.

Given the many ways the systems can be gamed, I find it difficult to take citation indexes, RAE scores, or league tables any more seriously than a Channel 4 Top 100 programme.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It appears that I&#8217;m doomed.</p>
<p>I took my name off several papers produced in a collaboration because I didn&#8217;t feel that I had contributed to those papers specifically. This is bad for me but I think it is the right thing to do. As you say, there is an incentive to add authors to your paper so that the favour will be returned. Perhaps this should be discouraged by reducing the weight of a paper by the number of authors.</p>
<p>Given the many ways the systems can be gamed, I find it difficult to take citation indexes, RAE scores, or league tables any more seriously than a Channel 4 Top 100 programme.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Ivison</title>
		<link>http://sarahaskew.net/2009/04/30/the-real-world-astronomers-edition/comment-page-1/#comment-358</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Ivison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 19:25:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sarahaskew.wordpress.com/?p=824#comment-358</guid>
		<description>wonderful post, darling girl.

i&#039;ve seen people try every trick in the book to raise their h index. i&#039;ve tried a few myself too! but i don&#039;t think anyone has deliberately published a mistake to get cited, have they?

one nutty thing about the h index is the lack of correction for age. another interesting thing about it: when you reach 20 or so you begin thinking &quot;if this paper isn&#039;t good enough to get 20+ citations, i might as well not bother&quot;... usually a good thing, but not so good if people don&#039;t publish their non-detections and others spend gazillions repeating the same experiment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wonderful post, darling girl.</p>
<p>i&#8217;ve seen people try every trick in the book to raise their h index. i&#8217;ve tried a few myself too! but i don&#8217;t think anyone has deliberately published a mistake to get cited, have they?</p>
<p>one nutty thing about the h index is the lack of correction for age. another interesting thing about it: when you reach 20 or so you begin thinking &#8220;if this paper isn&#8217;t good enough to get 20+ citations, i might as well not bother&#8221;&#8230; usually a good thing, but not so good if people don&#8217;t publish their non-detections and others spend gazillions repeating the same experiment.</p>
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